25.11.2007

VanceS contributed 126 messages, 6 emotes, 1 private message, 1 private emote during 136 minutes. 2007.11.25 04:06:17 Login Room: VirtualVance VanceS joined the room. VanceS left the room. Room: TI_Reception VanceS joined the room. VanceS: quiet here ... SvetlanaM joined the room. SvetlanaM: Hi from cold cold London DennisOl joined the room. SvetlanaM: Hello Dennis. DennisOl: Privet, Sveta! DennisOl: Hi, Vance and Jeff. SvetlanaM: Dennis, before all the experts arrive, could you help me with a really basic, dumb question? SvetlanaM: I mean before the room fills up ... DennisOl: Sure. I'll be happy to try. SvetlanaM: Oh thankyou! SvetlanaM: I'm trying to use Windows Media Encoder to record. DennisOl: What's the question (and there are really no dumb questions). DennisOl: Yes, OK. To record what? SvetlanaM: I set my laptop Audio Properties - to Volume, Recording Control and hten Wave Out Mix DennisOl: This isn't a dumb question at all, but I don't know the answer. I'm more familiar with Macs. SvetlanaM: Do I then need to again configure Windwos Media Encoder or should my settings remain as a default? VanceS: hi folks DennisOl: Ask Vance. SvetlanaM: Hi Vance. DennisOl: Sveta has a great question, Vance. SvetlanaM: OH! SvetlanaM: It's a dummy's question. I'm just starting out with recording DennisOl: Vance knows a lot about Windows Media. SvetlanaM: Can you suggest something I can read to about basics? VanceS: answer, whatever works VanceS: what have you tried? DennisOl: and settings for PCs. DennisOl: Sveta, ask Vance the question that you asked me. It is NOT a stupid question; actually, it's a very good one. VanceS: I was here so I see the question SvetlanaM: If you configure your laptop, e.g. to Audio Properties RecordingWave Out Mix, then should this remain the default when you go into Windows Media Recorder? DennisOl: Ah, good. Can you help? SvetlanaM: OH, you were here, Vance. can you help? VanceS: what are you trying to record exactly, what device? VanceS: It generally remains however you set it SvetlanaM: well, device? I'm not sure if it's a device, but I'm trying to record me, the moderator, students and text chat and the screen in a classroom, e.g. Chatterbox.I end up recording my voice and the text chat and the screen but not the students' voices. SvetlanaM: Device is a problem for me - because I don't know the terminology, Sorry. This is why I'm looking for something to read up - to learn the terminology. DennisOl: Is it an audio-in, audio-out problem, Vance? SvetlanaM: Good, that helps me Vance - It generally remains however you set it. SvetlanaM: Thank you! That's a start for me.... DennisOl: It sounds to me like what has to be configured in, say, streamed audio. SvetlanaM: Ah - another term 'streamed'. If I want to play it back on Windows Media Player - is that streamed? SvetlanaM: If you guys have something more important to discuss, then please take over. I wanted to get my basic question in early, before everyone arrives. DennisOl: Sveta: I'm searching for some information for you. SvetlanaM: ~Thank you Dennis. SvetlanaM: I've been following the Webheads Chat - and it's fascinating. My questions are much more basic than what you're discussing there. VanceS: sorry, got distracted for a moment VanceS: you are trying to record synchronous chat? all of it on computer? VanceS: you are in chatterbox? DennisOl: Sveta: Nichigo—and the questions here range from very simple to highly technical. SvetlanaM: yes, Vance. VanceS: you are recording your mic SvetlanaM: yes, my mic and VanceS: and the ONLINE students, right? SvetlanaM: yes, Vance. VanceS: their sound is coming in over your sound card SvetlanaM: right. That's a good question for me to have to answer. Yes, it's coming over my sound card. KristinaHR joined the room. DennisOl: Hi, Kristina. Welcome! KristinaHR left the room. SvetlanaM: It's things like that, that I've still got to get my head around, Vance. RitaZ joined the room. DennisOl: I know exactly what you mean, Sveta. SvetlanaM: So, I'm recording something that's on my sound card. RitaZ: hi, good day! DennisOl: Rita! Abrazotes! JeffC left the room (signed off). SvetlanaM: Hi Rita DennisOl: And a good day to you as well! RitaZ: abrazzotes para ti, Dennis dear! RitaZ: hi, Vance and Svet DennisOl: Mil gracias! RitaZ wonders how was Vance's overnight diving... DennisOl: Sveta has just asked a very good question about adjusting audio settings in Windows Media encoder. SvetlanaM: So, if I configure my Audio Devices on my computer, then I'm configuring my sound card. Is that right? DennisOl: Where / from where did he drive, Rita? VanceS: Hi Rita RitaZ: thanks, Dennis for your updating ;-)) SvetlanaM: diving overnight? that's rather exotic ???? DennisOl: I'm not sure, Sveta. That's why it's such a good question. SvetlanaM: Driving? or diving? hjehehehehe DennisOl: El gusto es mio, querida Rita. DennisOl: he he he he he DennisOl chuckles RitaZ: thats as far as I know, my beloved friends... VanceS: well I stayed overnight at a location where diving occurs during the daytime DennisOl: Ah, I see, Vance. Where? SvetlanaM: Vance - this is how rumours begin ..... RitaZ listens attentively DennisOl: Definitely, Sveta! VanceS: the east coast of the UAE DennisOl: Ah, very interesting! VanceS: along the gulf of Oman side VanceS: lots of nice coral and tropical fishes SvetlanaM: Oh, that's lovely - coral reefs? VanceS: variety of amenities VanceS: the whole coast has good diving, esp down into Oman VanceS: About Svetlana's problem RitaZ believes Vance stretches his life like a piece of chewing gum...and enjoys it fully :-)) VanceS . o O ( chewing gum?? ) VanceS blows a big bubble while thinking about that one DennisOl: I think you're right, Rita—and I'm very interesting in Vance's solution for Sveta's problem. RitaZ: makes it as large and useful as he can..., I mean DennisOl: Definitely! RitaZ: (theres a proverb in spanish) VanceS: this is what I know from webcast academy DennisOl: Si? Mandenos! VanceS: where our problem is to record both sides of a skype conference DennisOl: OK, let us have it, Vance. VanceS: might be the same problem in chatterbox VanceS: with skype, problem is recording from two devices using the same sound card DennisOl: I understand that . . . finally, Vance. VanceS: that is the sound input plus the headset mic SvetlanaM: right, both sides here = both audio sides which appear on the soundcard in my laptop. SvetlanaM: Right, got it, Vance VanceS: I presume you are using a headset mic svetlana? SvetlanaM: yes, I am SvetlanaM: VAnce VanceS: ok, the solution for webcastng is to get a USB mic VanceS: so the mic input is separate from the sound card one DennisOl: A USB desktop mic, Vance? SvetlanaM: USB mic = a mic with a USB jack, is that corrrect. VanceS: yep, they're lovely, and not expensive VanceS: I really like my iomega usb mic SvetlanaM: Wait - what is Webcasting? - 'the solution for webcasting is ...' VanceS: next thing is you need to get your computer to record from the two separate devices, sound card and usb VanceS: for that I have used Virtual Audio Cables VanceS: which causes problems in othe apps VanceS: but some folks use powergamo, which is esp for recording skype calls SvetlanaM: OK - if you use a USB, it is a separate device - it records on a separate device, not on the laptop sound card. VanceS: and late word on webheads or LWC, I forget which DennisOl: Sveta: Here's what Wikipedia says about webcasting: VanceS: is that it has a lot to do with your sound card what you need DennisOl: "A webcast is a media file distributed over the Internet using streaming media technology. As a broadcast may either be live or recorded, similarly, a webcast may either be distributed live or recorded. Essentially, webcasting is “broadcasting” over the Internet." VanceS: we consider it to be live, otherwise I would say it was 'streamed' RitaZ . o O ( evereary dear Dennis ) DennisOl: Rita: I'm good at finding things . . . if I know what to look for! DennisOl: So does Windows Media Encoder do recording? SvetlanaM: Well, I have now quite a lot to think about, thank you. Windows Media Encoder use the term 'encoder'. I think they are referring to 'recording'. DennisOl: Because there's something else you might want to look at once you get the Windows Media Encoder question solved. DennisOl: What? -- Audacity. RitaZ: ah, Vance, now that you are there, why is it that some videos dont come in all smoothly but in batches, and I have to wait for the next "batch" to come in to listen to it? SvetlanaM: yes, Dennis? VanceS: WME is actually a streaming / webasting software DennisOl: Audacity: DennisOl: http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ DennisOl: I'll be back in about 5 minutes . . . . . SvetlanaM: OK, I've read a lot about Audacity in the Webheads chats, Dennis. Cpacubo. VanceS: as with simplecast it makes a recording while streaming SvetlanaM: If I just want to listen to the recording on my laptop, using something simple and free like Windows Media Player - does that involve 'streaming'? SvetlanaM: At this point, I'm not distributing over the Internet.Just on my laptop. RitaZ wonders whether Vance read her query SvetlanaM: Ok, I'll now think about eveyrthing you've suggested, Vance. and Dennis. Thanks a million. VanceS: @rita yep VanceS: my supervisor was in my office shooting the breeze VanceS: gone now VanceS: coordinator I meant VanceS: anyway, yes, data is sent over the internet in packets VanceS: when those packets are delayed they are queued for delivery SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). VanceS: they come eventually but yuo might get a gap in transmission VanceS: in a recording of elluminate let's say VanceS: you might experience the delay in the live event VanceS: but in the recording it's fine SvetlanaM joined the room. VanceS: because the software puts all the pieces in place SvetlanaM: back RitaZ: sometimes they come in in one flow, at times they dont, and waiting makes it a disappointing listening experinec VanceS: @ svetlana WMP was designed to handle streamed media but it will play sound files off your computer as well SvetlanaM: Is that then related to problems with 'streaming'? SvetlanaM: Thank you Vance. SvetlanaM: So, it's actually a good starting point for beginners like me, to use WMP. Am I correct? RitaZ: so that may happen any time, even when you are showing a new video to an audience? VanceS: streaming is when the packets are sent over the internet and your player can play them to you as they are received rather than having to download the file first VanceS: what I often do if I want to show video at a presentaton VanceS: or just watch it myself VanceS: I'll let it run but turn the sound off VanceS: in the background VanceS: let it load in and buffer VanceS: and then later, when it's done RitaZ: great idea VanceS: replay it VanceS: then you see it all smoothly RitaZ . o O ( Vance has great ideas in all fields... ) VanceS blushes RitaZ: thank you, dear Vance!!!! VanceS: oh, btw SvetlanaM: And he can explain them in understandable English. ... RitaZ: a good teacher, on top ;-) VanceS: I've taken responsibility for a knowplace weekend this weekend RitaZ: Ive seen that, Vance, and have subscribed SvetlanaM: Where? please? VanceS: great, I was starting to get loney thee RitaZ: but havent got experience in using Google docs :-( VanceS: there RitaZ: or Google reader RitaZ: so I cant make comments :-( VanceS: this is the address: http://knowplace.ca/moodle/course/view.php?id=213 SvetlanaM: I've used Google docs a bit - great for collaboration. I turned on Skype at the same time so could talk and write synchronously DennisOl: I'm back, too--and have reviewed what was said after I left. RitaZ: but love the topic! VanceS: I was asked to give it on Google Notebook DennisOl: Yes, Google docs are great for collaboration. VanceS: not Google Docs DennisOl: When will your session be, Vance? RitaZ: Ive seen that, so you've also used all Google apps, Vance? VanceS: it's on now DennisOl: at KnowPlace. VanceS: asynch VanceS: in Moodle RitaZ: its going on, Svet RitaZ: this weekend SvetlanaM: ok, I'm looking for it now. DennisOl: Ah, I see. Thanks. SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). VanceS: I'm growing fond of Google because it's one login VanceS: if you're in gmail then you can use the notebook, google reader, blogger, etc VanceS: all on one cookie VanceS: and for that reason, it's great for students VanceS: who tend to forget passwords SvetlanaM joined the room. RitaZ: so how come you can cope with so many apps..., blogger, pageflakes, now G notebook plus all the others you have online, Vance?? VanceS: they can remember their gmail one VanceS: I guess cause they're intuititve VanceS: Knowplace weekend are only Fri, Sat Sun VanceS: I don't understand why they don't run them forever NinaTL joined the room. VanceS: hi nina NinaTL: Hi everyone NinaTL hugs all around SvetlanaM: Hi Nina. RitaZ hugs dear Nina back, warmly NinaTL: A warm hug is just the ticket on a cold day! NinaTL: How are you all? RitaZ :-) VanceS: I've noticed a temperature drop n Abu Dhabi RitaZ: too cold in NY? VanceS: not so hot out RitaZ: great sunny cool day here NinaTL: I have an announcement RitaZ listens NinaTL: Yesterday I created a new wordpress blog http://englishpower.wordpress.com/ SvetlanaM listens VanceS morphs into one huge ear DennisOl hugs Rita and waits for her announcement. NinaTL: It's for learners DennisOl: And she posted it before I posted my thought1 SvetlanaM looks at new blog NinaTL: to share all the nifty ideas I get from the webheads NinaTL: with my students NinaTL: I have only one post but over time I hope to build up a treasure trove of ideas for indepedennt study NinaTL: It will not change with my classes but stay put DennisOl: Nina, this is a very nice-looking blog. NinaTL: I am not completely satisfied with the skin DennisOl: And the idea of making it a repository of ideas for independent study is terrific! NinaTL: Thanks, Dennis! NinaTL: You are very kind. DennisOl: My pleasure! Parakaló! RitaZ agrees with dennis NinaTL: I've never had an ongoing blog with this audience before SvetlanaM: It looks professional! Nina VanceS: I was reading about the free rice program in OLDaily I think RitaZ: the skin is "lo de menos" :-) NinaTL: I chose Wordpress instead of Blogger, my usual favorite, because of the categories SvetlanaM: I like the skin, Nina - serious! DennisOl smiles because he isn't surprised Rita also thinks Nina's idea is terrific. NinaTL: I can categorize posts according to the 4 skills and grammar and also according to level DennisOl: You've got me interested in Wordpress again, Nina! NinaTL: I am thinking of deleting the "The" in "English Workshop" DennisOl: The categorization feature is a very good one. NinaTL: It seems pretentious! RitaZ: I've got a personal blog at Wordpress, find it a serious looking space NinaTL: On the otehr hand, I always yell at my students to put articles in front of singular nouns NinaTL: Yeah, I have my reading blog at wordpress SvetlanaM: I don't think so, Nina. Aim high! Students will realise that it's for serious stuff. NinaTL: That's another one I continually add to, every time I read or listen to a book DennisOl: Yes, I agree, Rita: Wordpress has a kind of serious look--but I agree with Sveta that that will help students realize that the content is serious. NinaTL: but I am not skilled at manipulating the sidebar RitaZ agrees again, appearance helps ;-) NinaTL: I udnerstand it has become more convenient since I screwed up my reading blog sidebar a couple of years ago SvetlanaM: Well, I admire you for the initiative. SvetlanaM: taking the initiative* NinaTL: Thank you very much! NinaTL: I have a posting question NinaTL: I wanted to credit my source (an article in the Washington Post) DennisOl: Yes??? NinaTL: but I think there must be a better way than linking the words "Joe Heim writes" VanceS: I just looked up Stephen Downes's take on Free Rice VanceS: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=42395 NinaTL: How would you have done this? RitaZ: good question to learn the answer... DennisOl: I would've said "Joe Heim writes, in a November 25th article in the Washington Post, . . . . DennisOl: And I'd put Washington Post in italics. NinaTL: That's depressing, vance! NinaTL: but which words would you link to the article? DennisOl: Of course the intro could be "According to Joe Heim," "Joe Heim states," According to Joe Heim . . . ." DennisOl: I don't understand, Nina. VanceS: it doesn't assign a value for awareness, which might help to tip the balance back a little NinaTL: Yes but that still doesn't answer the question NinaTL: True, vance ElaineGa joined the room. NinaTL: I am actually quite addicted to FreeRice at the moment--almost as bad as my daily jigsaw DennisOl: Link the topic of the article. DennisOl: The basic content. NinaTL: Well the topic os FreeRice, which I linked to the FreeRice site NinaTL: is RitaZ: ah, that could be a good idea, linking the "title"? DennisOl: OK. Do more than one link. NinaTL: There are 50 levels and I always try to see if I can get to level 50 DennisOl: And separate the links by commas. NinaTL: It's hard SvetlanaM: i've got connection problems. So, Bye all! Thanks a million for all the good advice. I've lots to think about. Bye DennisOl: For example, SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). RitaZ: bye, Svet NinaTL: A lot of the words are words I have never seen before and never will again (except at their site) DennisOl: Webheads_in_Action, tech_questions, audio_configuration, . . . . SvetlanaM joined the room. DennisOl: Hi again, Sveta! SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). DennisOl: Hi, Elaine--and Welcome! NinaTL: Yes, Rita, I was actually trying to avoid including the title, although that would be the obvious link. NinaTL: I don't want to make my post too complex given the ELL audience NinaTL: Hello, Elaine, welcome! DennisOl: Well, think of a very basic term to describe what the article is about. DennisOl: What IS it about? DennisOl: What's the general topic / focus? NinaTL: It's about FreeRice.com, what it is, who created it and why... RitaZ: sorry, guys, again hubby has been waiting for me for the Sunday outing together ona wonderful sunny day..., so I must leave :-( DennisOl: Give me one word for what it is. NinaTL: No, Rita, I always miss you becasue I eat breakfast before coming! DennisOl: Have a terrifc time, Rita! NinaTL: have a nice week NinaTL: I hope to talk to you soon DennisOl: ¡Ojalá que Uds. pasen un tiempo fantastico conjuntos! RitaZ: very sorrry about this, Nina..., its sooo difficult to choose pririties! NinaTL: I know NinaTL: My priority was to eat b'fast with hubby RitaZ: yes, Nina, we can meet online any morn DennisOl: Rita: Life is a series of compromises to unsatisfactory situations. DennisOl: (a quote from a former professor) NinaTL: Yes! NinaTL: good one, Dennis DennisOl: And it applies very well to choosing from among competing priorities. DennisOl: It was said to me by Herb Turrentine, a wonderful music professor. NinaTL: Except that a sunny outing with beloved hubby and a chat with webhead friends is not really an unsatisfactory situation RitaZ: great quote, dennis, serves the pirpose, in fact, I dont enjoy outings too much, specially when Im tired :-( NinaTL: It's an embarrassment of riches! DennisOl: When I was kvetching about how difficult my first teaching job was. NinaTL: Where is the outing today, Rita? DennisOl: An embarrasment of riches: YES! RitaZ hugs all and kisses all byr NinaTL hugs Rita RitaZ left the room (signed off). DennisOl: Mucho abrazos y besos! NinaTL: I'll take those, Dennis NinaTL: since Rita missed them DennisOl: You got 'em, my friend! NinaTL: Have you all seen Leanne's post from Mexico? They made it to Zacatecas! DennisOl: How do you say "hugs" in Greek? NinaTL: aggalies NinaTL: accent on the 'es' DennisOl: No, I haven't seen it, but I had a great meeting with Leanne and Calvin about a week ago. NinaTL: Yes, I know VanceS: I can't seem to prioritize even one window on my computer let alone real life tasks NinaTL: I love the picture of you sitting at the lunch table NinaTL: LOL Vance DennisOl: Aggaliés NinaTL: Which window is stealing your attention this morning if not this one? NinaTL: yes DennisOl: I'm glad you've seen it. Did she explain what I was doing? VanceS: this one has it now NinaTL: no VanceS: I get to reading things and then no telling where ... DennisOl: She had a large piece of fabric covered with messages from folks about their journey. NinaTL: Yes, exactly NinaTL: Cool! DennisOl: I drew a cartoon of myself and wrote a little note in Spanish. DennisOl: Something like 'May you encounter nothing but good fortune in the Great Trek of 2007." DennisOl: It was fun! NinaTL looks at the picture again DennisOl: I'll have to check out the picture, too. NinaTL: No, you are sitting in front of a large plate with a burger and fat fries I think NinaTL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lianadevine/2042513828/ DennisOl: Oh, that was a different one. NinaTL: Is that Calvin in the red shirt? DennisOl: Yes--on the right. NinaTL: Well, of course it isn't you or Leanne! NinaTL: He's nice looking DennisOl: Definitely not me or Leanne! NinaTL: LOL DennisOl: Yes, he's a good-looking guy and also very easy to feel comfortable with. DennisOl: And I'm VERY impressed with the many skills he has. NinaTL: What is his profession? DennisOl: What he did to rehab their bus is amazing! DennisOl: I don't actually know, but he's a talented mechanic. NinaTL: Did they remove the seats from the bus and make it into a camper? DennisOl: Unfortunately, I wasn't able to meet Spike the cat. NinaTL: I am finally, after all these years, reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance DennisOl: Yes. NinaTL: Where was Spike? DennisOl: He was at Calvin's parents' place in Mesa. We met at a bus repair place in central Phoenix. DennisOl: Then we went out to lunch close to the bus place and later went back to the bus for chatting and dessert. DennisOl: I felt instantly at home with both of them. VanceS: now it's Zen and the art of online communications and technology troubleshootnig DennisOl: Hear, hear, Vance! NinaTL: But the concept is quite similar; Pirsig speaks of "technology" in a kind of general way NinaTL: have you read it? DennisOl: I went to the KnowPlace Moodle for your course, by the way, Vance. VanceS: yep, some time ago, a good book NinaTL: I somehow missed it when it was all the rage NinaTL: I am listening to the audiobook and frankly have some difficulty staying focused DennisOl: I read it way back when, Nina, but I would understand it in a very different way now, I think. NinaTL: Can eitehr of you explain the relationship between this Phedris person and the author? DennisOl: Why, Nina? Does it hop around from topic to topic? NinaTL: Maybe because it's just philosophical, which I don't have much patience for ElaineGa left the room (signed off). NinaTL: I guess she didn't have much patience with this topic! VanceS: Is Phedris the son? Wasn't he traveling with his son? VanceS: recall is really dim on this one ... NinaTL: No, it seems that Phedris was himself in an earlier incarnation or something VanceS: ahhh NinaTL: He writes in one part that he woke up in a mental hospital one day NinaTL: with this guys fragmented memories NinaTL: following ECT or something similar DennisOl: Nina: Here's one thing that I found: DennisOl: "You eventually learn at some point that he had experienced a mental breakdown in his past and spent time in a mental hospital. You get the idea that struggling with some of these philisophical issues can cause you to go mental if you do not balance your life with a love for family and other parts of your life. He speaks of his previous mental breakdown experience in a third person matter. For the first half of the book you believe that he is talking about another person, Phaedris." NinaTL: Okay, that makes sense NinaTL: Thank you, Dennis! I thought it could be something like that NinaTL: but thought maybe I had missed something when my mind was wandering SvetlanaM joined the room. SvetlanaM: Back again. NinaTL: the thing about audiobooks and driving is that it's difficult to go back and check if you miss something DennisOl: Yes, I'm sure it is, Nina. NinaTL: Are the Sutherlands real people? or is this a novel DennisOl: And Wikipedia says this: DennisOl: "The book features two types of personalities, those who are interested mostly in gestalts (romantic viewpoints, e.g., Zen), the other who needs to know details, the inner workings, mechanics (classic viewpoints, e.g., motorcycle maintenance). DennisOl: The Sutherlands represent the romantic attitude towards the world. The narrator (the book is written in first person) is more into the classic approach. Or so it seems. In fact he understands well both viewpoints and is aiming for the middle ground. He does understand that technology and the "dehumanised world" that it carries with it appears ugly and repulsive to a "romantic" person. But on the other hand he is capable of seeing the beauty of technology and feels good about mechanical work. The author demonstrates that the cycle maintenance may be dull and tedious drudgery or an exciting and pleasureable pastime. It all depends on the inner attitude and peace of mind (or the lack of it)." NinaTL: I am also looking at Wikipedia SvetlanaM left the room (signed off). NinaTL: He presents the book as a memoir but he is so disdainful of the Sutherlands that I figure they must be a construct of his NinaTL: He would not trash real people in such a way DennisOl: I think he uses them and Phaedris as symbols for different points of view. DennisOl: "Different ways of looking at a Blackbird." (Wallace Stevens) NinaTL: There are some interesting extreneral links there, such as photos he took on the trip! So it must have been a real trip NinaTL: and there are photos of John and Sylvia Sutherland NinaTL: If I had been them I would've sued him NinaTL: He portrays them as hippie airheads DennisOl: Nina: See this link: DennisOl: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/stevens-13ways.html DennisOl: "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird" VanceS: I used to be a wallace stevens fan VanceS: he was an insurance salesman NinaTL reads the poem VanceS: as I recall DennisOl: Yes, I think you're right, Vance. DennisOl: Nina: The Wikipedia comments say this about the Sutherlands: DennisOl: "he Sutherlands represent the romantic attitude towards the world. The narrator (the book is written in first person) is more into the classic approach. Or so it seems. In fact he understands well both viewpoints and is aiming for the middle ground. He does understand that technology and the "dehumanised world" that it carries with it appears ugly and repulsive to a "romantic" person. But on the other hand he is capable of seeing the beauty of technology and feels good about mechanical work. The author demonstrates that the cycle maintenance may be dull and tedious drudgery or an exciting and pleasureable pastime. It all depends on the inner attitude and peace of mind (or the lack of it).: NinaTL: Does this have something to do with Zen too, Dennis? DennisOl: "The DennisOl: Yes. Zen is about the distillation of essences. DennisOl: and perceptions DennisOl: "lookings," "seeings," "understandings" NinaTL: All these years I have carried with me the idea that the book was about bringing a contemplative attitude to whatever one is doing DennisOl: Zen is about "is-ness." DennisOl: Well, it is. NinaTL: like cooking or washing dishes, scrubbing out toilets, maintaining a motorcycle or whatever DennisOl: That's the point: maintaining a cycle is more than just changing a sparkplug every so often. NinaTL: How do you happen to connect this particular poem to this book? DennisOl: It's a frame of mine. DennisOl: It's a way of understanding--the development of a contemplative attitude to even the most mundane (or the most non-esoteric) topics. NinaTL: I like the fifth verse DennisOl: Stevens showed that there are many ways of perceiving a blackbird. DennisOl: That is, "blackbirdness" can be much more than seeing a small, black-feathered winged creature. NinaTL: Temple Grandin would point out that distilling "blackbirdness" out of all the individual blackbirds one might have encountered is not something which comes naturally to an autistic person DennisOl: Yes, I like the fifth verse, too. NinaTL: She mentions her difficulty in understanding "dog" in the abstract DennisOl: No, not to an autistic person--and not to non-autistic people, either. NinaTL: Of course dogs are more dissimilar than blackbirds but perhaps not, if one's powers of observation are keen enough NinaTL: In her recent book about how animals think she says that animals see everything DennisOl: I mean, there are all kinds of different "shades" and "hues" of concreteness and abstractness and variations on a continuum from one to the other (and others). NinaTL: They aren't capable of screening out details as people naturally are NinaTL: Autistic people, she says, are similar to animals in that sense NinaTL: They can't screen out distractions DennisOl: I think maybe Stevens is forcing us to analyze the powers of observation: what one observes may be radically different things, depending on focus, point of view, "mental refinement," etc. etc. etc. DennisOl: So they "see" a blackbird like a fly or something: a composite of many images / understandings . . . but not unified into a single perception. DennisOl: Instead, multiple inputs are separate. NinaTL: More from Wikipedia: The Phaedrus (Greek Φαίδρος), written by Plato, is a dialogue between Plato's main protagonist, Socrates, and Phaedrus, an interlocutor in several dialogues. The Phaedrus was presumably composed around 370 BC, around the same time as Plato's Republic and Symposium; with those two texts, it is often considered one of Plato's literary high points. Although ostensibly about the topic of love, the discussion in the dialogue revolves around the art of rhetoric and how it should be practiced, and dwells on subjects as diverse as reincarnation and erotic love. NinaTL: Is that how the "character" in the book is spelled? Sounds like fee-dris to me but I haven't seen the book DennisOl: Yes, I thought "Phaedris" must surely be symbolic. DennisOl: I'm not sure, but Phaedris is the classical spelling, and it's often simplified into Phedris. NinaTL: When I searched for phaedris I did not come up with anything that looked relevant NinaTL: My husband (sitting next to me at the other computer watching Greek TV) says it was fedros NinaTL: so, Phaedrus DennisOl: Yep. NinaTL: Dennis, do you like Billy Collins' poetry? DennisOl: This is more from "Life on Southpoint Drive" (http://www.soutpt.com/e107/news.php?item.20.8) NinaTL: He was on A Prairie Home Companion yesterday DennisOl: "You eventually learn at some point that he had experienced a mental breakdown in his past and spent time in a mental hospital. You get the idea that struggling with some of these philisophical issues can cause you to go mental if you do not balance your life with a love for family and other parts of your life. He speaks of his previous mental breakdown experience in a third person matter. For the first half of the book you believe that he is talking about another person, Phaedris." DennisOl: he = Persig NinaTL: Yes, you mentioned that NinaTL: It makes sense NinaTL: btw that link didn't work for me NinaTL: "problem loading page" NinaTL: He doesn't seem to be talking about an actual other person DennisOl: I might've gotten it wrong. Hold on. DennisOl: http://www.southpt.com/e107/news.php?item.20.7 NinaTL: but he implies that this Phaedris was himself in another life SaraAl joined the room. NinaTL: He also mentiones to the Sutherlands that his son is showing signs of developing mental illness NinaTL: Hello, Sara, welcome DennisOl: Maybe the "other life" was when he was mentally ill. SusanR joined the room. NinaTL: Hi, Sue DennisOl: And maybe he saw his son as becoming HIM--i.e., entering the same "other life." VanceS: Hi all NinaTL: Yes, I think that is true, Dennis DennisOl: Hi Sara and Sue. SusanR waves and wishes all a Happy Thanksgiving NinaTL: Likewise! SaraAl: Hi, Dennis and Nina DennisOl: Hi, Susan--and Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! NinaTL: Thanks for remembering, Sue NinaTL: Canadian Thanksgiving was a month ago already, wasn't it? DennisOl: Nina: I think the idea about Phaedris = past life / past experience is explained in this quote: DennisOl: "He speaks of his previous mental breakdown experience in a third person matter. For the first half of the book you believe that he is talking about another person, Phaedris." NinaTL: not the first half DennisOl: Again, He = Persig. NinaTL: a couple of chapters, maybe NinaTL: after that you realize that Pirsig and Phaedris share the same memories NinaTL: We are talking about zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which I am reading now NinaTL: I am also trying to read a French novel which has been on my list for 2 years SusanR . o O ( a classic book ) NinaTL: Belle du Seigneur by Albert Cohen--has anyone read that one? DennisOl: I haven't. NinaTL: My French is very rusty so I borrowed the English translation and refer to it at least once per page! NinaTL: I'm just starting out, about p. 35 NinaTL: So far it's challenging NinaTL: stream of consciousness NinaTL: not easy to read in a first language let alone second! NinaTL: but I will persevere for a while at least NinaTL: Vacation is coming up (Dec 19-Jan7) ThomasLev joined the room. NinaTL: Hey, Tom, what's up? ThomasLev: hello! DennisOl: Here's a good background linke on _Belle du Seigneur_, Nina: DennisOl: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1479093 NinaTL: How's life in the hinterland? DennisOl: Hey, Tom. How's thangs? VanceS: hey Tom DennisOl: And on that note, I have to leave again: too much coffee this morning. I'll be back, though. ThomasLev: our roof leaked on T'giving day ThomasLev: aside from that, ok NinaTL: Nice to chat literature and philosphy with you, Dennis NinaTL: Oh, dear NinaTL: That can be an expensive problem NinaTL: Do you have to replace the whole roof or just fix the leak? ThomasLev: it was right over the computer, piano & fiddle ThomasLev: but, we were going to build a new addition anyway ThomasLev: just had to move everything VanceS: I thought you were goign to say you had to replace everything VanceS is relieved NinaTL: Oh, no! Were those things damaged? ThomasLev: nothing damaged, really ThomasLev: piano is out of tune anyway NinaTL: That's to be thankful for then! :-) SusanR: is relieved SusanR . o O ( multitasking and reading your google notes at Knowplace, Vance ) ThomasLev: it was odd because it happened right in front of us, right after dinner ThomasLev: Vance, I have a question- did you send a message about a new WIAOC? NinaTL: Reminds me of the day of my sister's 3rd marriage, which was at he home in Washington DC NinaTL: They had been out of the house because it was being renovated VanceS: not yet Tom VanceS: have been thinking about it NinaTL: It was supposed to be ready for the wedding NinaTL: but on the big day there was a catastrophic leak VanceS: who wants to work on the committee? NinaTL: to make a long story short everything went off okay but I felt sorry for the builder! ThomasLev: they got married? didn't take it as an omen? NinaTL: Are you already planning a convergence? Seems like the last one was only a short while ago NinaTL: No, and they are still married KevinGst1 joined the room. VanceS: great Nina NinaTL: Welcome, Kevin VanceS: and it will take months to get the convergence ready VanceS: the first thing to decide is shoot for when VanceS: what date VanceS: next I put up a wiki VanceS: or use webheadsinaction.og KevinGst1: Hello VanceS: and people volunteer ThomasLev: i remember a message of some kind but couldn't find it when I went back looking VanceS: or ... VanceS: Hi Kevin KevinGst1 left the room. NinaTL: Where are you joining us from, Kevin? Is this your first visit to Tapped In? NinaTL: oops NinaTL: not fast enough ThomasLev: wiaoc.org expired DennisOl: Hi, Kevin. Welcome! NinaTL: wb, Dennis VanceS: I jsut renewed it, work now? DennisOl: Vance: I'm glad you've started work on the convergence. The wiki is a great idea. DennisOl: I'll be happy to help with behind-the-scenes things. You know how much I like doing that. VanceS: it's working again VanceS: sorry for the hiccup VanceS . o O ( hic ) ThomasLev: ah, I'm glad it's back DennisOl: Yes, I called it up and got it. VanceS: whew VanceS: it was down yesterday VanceS: I got my credit card out DennisOl: Thanks for the wb, Nina. KevinGst1 joined the room. DennisOl: Hi again, Kevin. NinaTL: Dennis, here is a Billy Collins poem I just discovered which is relevant to our discussion: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/shoveling-snow-with-buddha/ KevinGst1: Hello again NinaTL: So Kevin, where are you in real life? KevinGst1: I'm from Pennsylvania and I 'm looking for info on elearnin g DennisOl: Very nice poem, Nina. VanceS: we have info on elearning DennisOl: It's another spin on what Wallace Stevens was trying to say, I think. NinaTL: I am not much for poetry but I like Billy Collins VanceS: we are doing elearning now, the lifelong variety KevinGst1: cool DennisOl: Kevin: You've come to the right place! KevinGst1: I'm just finding my place around NinaTL: We are ESL/EFL teachers but today we are talking mostly about books DennisOl: I like poetry a lot, Nina, but I have to be in the right frame of mind to get into it. SaraAl left the room (signed off). NinaTL: I am redaing Collins' poem about the neighbors' barking dog NinaTL: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/another-reason-why-i-don-t-keep-a-gun-in-the-hou/ DennisOl: And the discussion started out with a good question about configuring audio to record from multiple inputs. KevinGst1: I interested in ESL and math science tutoring NinaTL: It's very relevant because I just finished a biography of Beethoven! KevinGst1: Dennis where are u from? DennisOl: Ah, then you should search for ESL content-based learning. KevinGst1: thanks NinaTL: How did you discover Tapped In, Kevin? DennisOl: I'm from Illinois, K, but I haven't lived there for a long time. I live in Phoenix now. NinaTL lives in Maryland SusanR: lives in Ottawa, Ontario ThomasLev: I'm in Illinois NinaTL: This is my favorite Collins poem so far: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/forgetfulness/ DennisOl: Kevin: See the results of this Google search: DennisOl: http://tinyurl.com/2xlmz6 KevinGst1: Nina, just surfing around NinaTL: Are you currently a teacher, Kevin? KevinGst1: Yes, I teach 8th science here in PA DennisOl: Nina: I like "Forgetfulness,:" too. It really captures the way memories fade in and out. NinaTL: All of his poems make me laugh NinaTL: I enjoy hearing him read them aloud NinaTL: My daughter is in 9th grade here in MD DennisOl: When I read through it, I thought, "Yes. That's exactly what happened." And I agree: it's definitely funny. Profound but not pompous. NinaTL: She is taking a course called "Matter & Energy" NinaTL: Physics and Chemistry for slow learners, I think NinaTL: He's not pretentious at all NinaTL: I saw somewhere that he is a minor poet who likes being a minor poet and would not accept major poet status even if it were thrust on him NinaTL: interesting comment NinaTL: Sue and Tom, I'd like to introduce you to my baby blog for ELLs NinaTL: http://englishpower.wordpress.com NinaTL: I created it only yesterday and there is just one post NinaTL: but I plan to keep adding to it--posts about things students can do to enhance their own learning NinaTL: It's too early yet but in a few months perhaps you will share it with your students ThomasLev: let us know when! NinaTL: OK DennisOl: Definitely an interesting comment. I don't think he wants to be thought of as erudite, and I don't think he wants to get too involved in "distilling meanings." Too much analysis spoils the soup! NinaTL: Yes NinaTL: His poems are easy to understand DennisOl: Yes, definitely let us know, Nina. SusanR: I pln to share freerice with my next class NinaTL: I don't have the patience to tease out buried meanings DennisOl: Profound doesn't have to be difficult. NinaTL: Great! DennisOl: A simply-put thing can have all kinds of levels of meaning. DennisOl: And whether or not you choose to delve into them is up to you. DennisOl: It shouldn' NinaTL: btw Vance pointed out a post that indicates as a charitable action it is not very far-reaching DennisOl: shouldn't, in my opinion, be a REQUIREMENT for understanding poetry or Web 2.0 or multiliteracy or anything. NinaTL: but it does provide vocabulary practice if not much in the way of rice to feed the world's hungry compared to the amount earned by advertisers :-( DennisOl: But it should always be an option. NinaTL: I agree absolutely, Dennis ThomasLev: This reminds me of actualism ThomasLev: the actualist movement in poetry believed that one shouldn't have to know the Greek masters to understand a good poem VanceS: stephen downes http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=42395 VanceS: stephen often rains on parades DennisOl: I mean, it's authentic communication to say "Me. Eat. Me. Throw" (even though it's hardly grammatical) and in some ways that communicates more than "Wouldn't you know that I stuffed myself to such an awesome degree at Thanksgiving dinner that I later, shall we say, had a passing rememberence to it?" NinaTL: LOL Dennis NinaTL: Anyway as long as one is practicing vocabulary even a few cents of rice may be better than nothing ThomasLev: so they wrote poems about ashtrays, etc. NinaTL: Obviously if one's primary motive is to feed the hungry there are much better ways to do that! DennisOl: Or "Thanksgiving --- Gourmands Past the of 'Everything in Moderation."; DennisOl: Definitely, Tom. SusanR: Well kids are still learning and giving at the same time DennisOl: One of my favorite Beat poems (way back when) was this: NinaTL: or in my case, university students NinaTL: btw don't try this in a networked lab NinaTL: I did and it did not work DennisOl: "It hurts to be murdered." (Diane Di Prima, if I remember correctly) NinaTL: Ouch VanceS: must run folks NinaTL: So long, vance! SusanR: ditto NinaTL: Have a good week DennisOl: Vance, thanks for the heads up about the wiki. SusanR: have a great day ThomasLev: take care! DennisOl: Remember what I said about behin-the-scenes work, OK? DennisOl: behind- VanceS: thanks dennis KevinGst1: Thanks all, have a great day. NinaTL: Excuse me while I wake up my daughter and give her some medicine NinaTL: She has strep throat :-( DennisOl: My pleasure. My best to Bobbi! VanceS: bye to all ThomasLev: aach DennisOl: Oy! Poor bebbele. KevinGst1 left the room (signed off). DennisOl: Ma-al-salaamah! DennisOl: M'a DennisOl: Ma'a DennisOl: Finally got it right. SusanR: Take care all SusanR left the room (signed off). DennisOl: You, too, Susan! ThomasLev: about freerice, I'd say that if the amount of rice is low, then the advertisers will always want in, and it will be more stable VanceS left the room (signed off). 2007.11.25 06:23:06 Signoff